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Drizzle
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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Available loot systems and a little about each:

free roll
ladder
DKP
zero-sum DKP


Free Roll: This is a system where anyone present can roll on any item that drops that they feel they need or will use.

Ladder: This is a system where people roll for starting spots and then its just a big que with each item being offered to the top of the list and so on down the ladder till someone takes the item and goes to the bottem of the list.

DKP: This is a system where people get DKP points for completeing bosses/raids, these points are spent to buy items that drop. Highest total given first priority.

Zero-sum DKP: This is similar to the above DKP system except you do not earn points unless someone spends points, this smooths out some of the issues that can arise with DKP hoarding and DKP inflation.

Often the above systems have a few guidelines that are applied as well. Such as you can only get one drop or one teal or one whatever per run, or you can take an item to go negative DKP unless your already at a negative DKP, ect.



So now for a few implications of each system.

Free Roll:

Pros
> This system does not penilize new or infrequent raiders.
> This system seems equitable to most people.
> This system requires NO work or upkeep.


Cons
> This system doesnt reward the frequent raider, other then they are there to roll more often then people who raid less.
> This system can be brutal for those who tend to roll bad on a consistant basis.



Ladder:

Pros
> This system rewards the frequent raider.
> This system requires very little upkeep/work.


Cons
> This system equates all items as equal value, ie a first age = any other drop.
> This system can bring about bottem-feeding, where in a person who is already at the
bottem of the ladder uses ladder spots to get any loot they want because they cannot fall
down spots in the ladder since they are already at the bottem.
> Once the ladder reaches a certain length it becomes very discouraging for any
new/infrequent raiders who join at the bottem of a very long ladder. Especially with ladders
that are moving slowly do to slow drops or bottem feeding.




DKP:

Pros
> This system allows items to not have the same value, This is huge when some
drops are a giant deal like first agers and some are much more insignificant like a
purple dagger or an armour token.
> This system rewards frequent raiders.
> This system allows for drops to have diffirent values, ie a first age symbol cost more then a purple dagger which costs less then an armour token for instance.

Cons
> This sytem can breed DKP hoarding eventually
> This sytem does require some upkeep/work. to maintain.
> This system can seem over-welming or confusing to those who havent used it
before.
> This system requires that all drops be assigned a value relative to all other drops.


Zero-Sum DKP

Pros
> This system rewards frequent raiders.
> This system has different values for different items. a first age does not equal a purple dagger.
> This system has balances built in to minimize DKP hoarding and DKP inflation.

Cons
> This system does require a fair amount of work to maintain.
> This system can be a little confusing/over-welming for new raiders.


SIDEBAR: a few of the terms used here.

Bottom-feeding is a term used to identify the occurance where in someone at the bottem of the ladder can take items over and over again because they dont lose spots because they are already at the bottem of the of the ladder. only occurs when everyone above them passes on the items in question.

DKP Hoarding is in theory waiting untill you have a high enough total that you get first pick no matter what, I am unsure how this differs from waiting untill you are at the top of the ladder. I also am unsure how this really adversly effects the loot system as a whole. It seems to me if your willing to save your points till you see something you really want, that this is the system working right.

DKP Inflation is the thought that as people in the system get more and more DKP that it becomes worth less and less. Unless you carry one DKP system from one raid to another im not sure how this really adversly effects the system either.


*** Certainly there may be other pros and cons for each system these are what came to mind when writeing this, others may have differing opinions about what is a pro and what is a con as well. Also there could be other systems that ive not heard of or have not used in the past. ***



My Opinions on the merits and uses of each system:


Free Roll: for PUGs or small kins, a large raiding kin will find that some of their frequent raiders are not ending up with much due to bad rolling, they lose interest and pretty soon the only people showing up are those lucky enough to win often.


Ladder: For small kins or tight-knit groups that raid together with the same people everytime or have a very small pool from which raiders come from.


DKP: Some sort of DKP system is used by most raiding kins. A DKP system with well thought out values can be very equitable and can handle even the largest pool of raiders. Although it does take a fair amount of work to adopt.



Zero-Sum DKP: This system has all the value of a normal DKP system while smoothing out the DKP hoarding and DKP inflation issues. But like DKP above it does take a fair amount of work to set up and some work maintaning it. This is my personal choice for any but the smallest kins or certainly any kin that has more then 15-18 raiders in their system.


Drizzle
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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Good work Drizz.

My biggest concern with DKP was the upkeep, something no one was willing to do last time this came up for vote. Brum pointed me to a site that addresses that with an easy to use site. http://www.eqdkp-plus.com/

Looks like at most 10 minutes per post-raid is needed, aside from setup. Also, this site only provides the code, not the host. May need a hosting site if this goes forward.

Anyone willing to play around with this, maybe set one up so we can test it out?
Puddles404
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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Just my buck fiddy here...

Something is going to happen with the expansion that is going to alter a lot of perceptions on gear full stop, and not just the previous instance cluster gear. It's rolling onto all gear.

Changes are, but not limited to, and entirely subject to change;
- removal of stat caps on GEAR. That's right, not just character stat caps but the theoretical caps they have
on the amount of bonus being provided by a single piece of gear.
- de-categorisation of stats on gear types. ie. Will/fate becoming more prominent on Heavy/Medium armour
and Might/Vit becoming more prominent on Light armour. Note the italics.
- restatting of a lot of current gear. Yep, they're doing another revision of the stats on pre-existing gear.
That means the armour you have come to know and love may have changed, and not always in the way you would
have liked.
- character based stat caps. Of course, when you can put as much into any stat as you like, that will effect
the validity of a lot of gear for certain classes, meaning "more vitality" will be just that, not a wasted
stat.
- new gear, of course. There will always be new gear.
- and last but not least *(drumroll)* greater disparity between gear per effective level. ie what
historically could have been expected to be a +2 increase over the previous iteration would perhaps be in the
order of +10 over the previous piece of armour.

Discussion on changes etc are all well and good, but without seeing what actually eventuates from CB to live there is no way possible to make an informed decision.

And on a side note, the biggest Con you missed from the DKP and zero-sum DKP systems would be the possibility of people seagulling drops without putting any work into an instance, ie running one raid repeatedly (raid A), usually a less than new raid, to build DKP and then blowing said DKP in the big bad raid of the day (raid B) and yoinking the prize off someone who had put in the hard yakka in raid B.

Again, just a buck fiddy from someone who actively avoids raiding, mostly due to the brainferking and B&M that goes on over loot acquired vs effort and performance. Call me the Devil's Advocate if you will, but as a dedicated non-raider I feel it is my solemn duty to shoot holes in any kind of loot assignation system that doesn't reward the people putting in the effort right there on that run.

Some examples for people to ponder;
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You then write a letter to the people that run the lottery saying that you should have gotten something because you participated. You get a letter back saying that they apologise for the inconvenience, and ask that you just persist with buying lottery tickets.
The next week, you buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
^This is Free-roll worst-case scenario^

You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You then write a letter to the people that run the lottery saying that you should have gotten something because you participated. You get a letter back saying that they apologise for the inconvenience, and that you are guaranteed a wine with your lottery ticket.
The next week, you go to buy a lottery ticket and find out that they are no longer running that lottery, but there is a new lottery starting with even bigger, better prizes so....
You buy a new lottery ticket. You win nothing.
^This is Ladder worst-case scenario, specifically for someone who doesn't have the time to raid like a crack addict^

You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. So you keep the ticket, because it says you can redeem it for prizes if you collect enough.
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You keep the ticket (see above).
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You keep the ticket (see above).
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You keep the ticket (see above).
You buy a lottery ticket. You win nothing. You go to redeem the ticket as per the instructions and turns out there is someone in front of you who bought TWO tickets each time, and in front oh him there is someone who bought three tickets.
^This is DKP worst-case scenario, still somewhat applicable for zero-sum also^


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re: Raid Loot Systems

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Wow Bori thank you and Driz of course thank you also. At present a system is being discussed because we need an upgrade so thanks for you inputs.

Andi Happy
Drizzle
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re: winning the lottery :)

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I admit that winning the lottery is why some maybe many people raid but its not all about hitting the jackpot.

Some of us like to play the lottery (topend 5% of the game) just to play the lottery, trying different strategies ect, even without the chance to hit the big one, admitedly many wouldnt raid without ANY rewards but its not all about the loot. And some of us can achieve satisfaction from our buddy hitting the lottery or watching the new raider finaly getting his/her last armour set piece.

I do agree that uncontrolled/resolved raid loot issues can cause real problems in some kins/guilds, i have seen it be the downfall of many fine kins and have left/resigned from several myself over issues of how loot was being handled (the free-roll days of moria .. yuck). But for those of us that burn on that outer 5% fringe that is top-end, a good loot system is a must.

So a Loot System is a must and given all thats at stake its important to choose the best you can for your current or near future needs. All you can do is have some good lively debate about it then adopt the best one you can, try to be as fair as you can when implementing it, try to stay as open as you possibly can be with sign-ups and last but not least if or when your system starts to unravel a little at the edges, you all take a deep breathe, remember you are all friends and work about solving the issues.

sidenote: seagulling is only an issue if your not running raidXraid systems, its a non-issue with seperate systems, just a little more work to setup.

Drizzle
Drizzle
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re: Sample values OD DKP

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here is a sample breakdown of how rev breaks down thier OD dkp values.

Not advocateing a straight use of thier values only that we can use several sets of established values as a baseline for deriving ours. anyway here goes:

T2:
1. 5 points for trash clear on any boss.
2. 10 points for downing any and all bosses.
3. 5 points additional for each challenge mode completed.

This means that with the full instance clear ( on T2 only, of course), all 6 bosses and chalenges will award a member 120 dkp per week, after we have the challenges and such on farm. This may seem like a high number to some, but the reason that the point system is normalized this way is the offset the high cost of the new items, which is outlined below.

T1 Clear:
1. 3 points for trash clear on any boss.
2. 5 points for downing any and all bosses.

T2 Loot:
1. Armor pieces - 10 points
2. Teal Jewellery - 20 points
3. Purple jewellery - 10 points
4. Epic items (Orange) - 50 points
5. First age crafting item - 50 points

T1 Loot:
1. Armor pieces - 5 points
2. Teal Jewellery - 20 points
3. Purple jewellery - 10 points
4. Epic items (Orange) - 50 points
5. First age crafting item - 50 points




Like i said just a set of sample values to start to draw our ides from.


Drizzle


PS: special thanks to Bara Saqqra and the Rev guys for provideing these values to us.
Brumnly
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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I have set up a test site on my host, feel free to register and add ur toons , i will give some officers admin so they can take a look inside Happy

http://www.brumnlyshome.com/eqdkp/viewnews.php


Happy


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Drizzle
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re: easy to follow intro to DKP systems

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Here is a nice easy to follow intro. to what DKP systems are and how they work.

www.tentonhammer.com/node/26749




Drizz
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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here is links to brain trusts old raid systems

and item points value

http://www.guildportal.com/ContentControls/Support/InfoSectionViewer.aspx?GuildID=324943&TabID=2724129&GuildInfoSectionID=253973
Andismak
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re: Raid Loot Systems

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Just bumping this up so people still get to see it.
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