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Drizzle
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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The ladder has grown to 3 times the size of the raid, this is a problem. The current ladder loot system breeds ppl waiting for there top pick to get a 1st age symbol then once at the bottem of the list takeing armour/other things over and over again because your already at the bottem and cant go down anymore. This is silly and wrong.

Please can we as a kin re-discuss DKP systems in-particular zero-sum DKP systems. We are still useing a system made for small kins with few raiders, we have out-grown ladder and with the current recruiting wave the situation is only going to get worse.


Also the ladder as i see it hasnt been updated to include last weeks runs possable more. Drizzle has been in spot 25 since the ladders creation where he was stuck in at the last minute after being forgoten completely.

Please believe that i am not the only one who feels that we outgrew the ladder almost since we adopted it, and that it is time to bring our raiding and raiders into a new era of Fair and Fun raiding.


Drizzle
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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I agree with Driz, i think a DKP system would be better at this stage. I have been registered on 2 DKP sites and it seems to work real well. The zero sum Driz is talking about would be new to me but from what Driz explain to me it sounds good.

From what i heard from the person that runs SOTS DKP Site, its real easy to use, and i might even be able to get a site and set it up,

Happy

oh and for some reason i'm still showing as a member- footman on the site,


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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Last weekends OD ladder hasnt been posted. I wasnt in the raid so i am not aware of who won what and who was even in the group. I will ask El to fix it when he can.

I would like to point out that the ladder is as big as the raid, 12 people in the raid 12 ladder spots. Thats it simple. Also you dont move until you raid. Driz you have been sitting in 25th position because you need to be in a raid and down a boss to move ( please exclude last week because it isnt up ). If you attend the raid and a boss doesnt get downed you dont move in the ladder. I can see irritating this can be but thats how it works. I had to fight tooth and nail to implement this system for SC but i can see its failures like all systems it has its faults like it rewards successful raiding not just raiding.

And the problem with the OD raid right now is no-one wants to give up a ladder position for the armour pieces and the person on the bottom just takes them. That is not a fault with the ladder that is a fault with the loot not being worth it or part of the the loot ie 1st ager being so much more desirable.

I am up for a review yes but i am not sure I am up for the heated discussions which will follow because people dont like the unfairness of DKP and the hoarding of DKP points. All systems have their faults, that i am fully aware of, and i can see the fault with the ladder system. I will put it on the agenda for the next officer meeting and see how it goes. Happy

And Driz i have apologised about that it wasnt deliberate and it wasnt you were left off the ladder. You ran with Stans group on those Thursday nights but were never sucessful thats why there was no ladder for you guys. Again i am sorry.
Drizzle
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Ok so i should not have mentioned ladder updates on the same post, certainly my bad on that.

Next there is no hoarding of dkp points with a zero-sum dkp system no points are earned unless points are spent, thats why its called a zero-sum DKP system. Also DKP hoarding vs: stagnant ladder waiting on symbols both produce bad side effects that are non-existant or minimalized by a zero-sum DKP system, because you can assign different values to different type items you dont have the top stagnant waiting one drop and everything else that drops essentially haveing no-effect on the system.

And for the size of the list which was the point of my post mostly it is 3 times the size of the raid. The most current listing for OD has 36 names on it, this is 3 times the size of the raid that actually goes in there. And sometimes drops produce movement of the list and sometimes they dont (first ages always do, anything else is a maybe).

With 36 ppl on the list and at current pace thats 6-months from bottem to top roughly. Not that a DKP system wont reward people for going and raiding often it will, but with a structured fee or DKP cost system you will be able to take an item (not a first age) and pay its cost without cursing yourself to 6 months before you will see anything else. And the incentive to take everything you can get your hands on once at the bottem of the list will go away. With a point system other items besides first ages will produce movement of the system.


Please let me apologize i did not mean to come across as slamming our last debate/choice of systems, but i do feel like the management at the time (mostly TG maybe others) didnt like the idea of changing at all and i think that bias bled over into the discussion of the issue (actually i dont think there was much discussion it felt more like well if we have to we can vote but why would we ever change). And this is really important so i want us as a kin to really look at the way things currently work and at the systems that are out there.

I really like the kin and and everyone here and certainly feel like I couldnt imagine myself anywhere else, but loot and loot systems are important to me and to many others, I and others feel as though the ladder is not serveing our kin at all the way it is currently operating with only one item really mattering and all the rest just being soaked up by the bottem.

Please really give this some thought guys it is important.

And i must stand by my previous opinion that currently our ladder is mostly broken, if you really dont think thats true please tell my why.


thanks Drizz
Isofir
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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I guess this may be adding fuel to the fire, but how would you propose initiating DKP while maintaining where people stand on the current ladder. Since May 15th when the first First Age token was won, I started on the ladder at #26. I've been to lots of raids (mostly only every other weekend) and have worked my way up to #8. In reality, based on those who actually go to the raids and finish, I am 4th or possibly 3rd in line. This may sound selfish, but like everyone who actually attends (and finishes) the raid on a regualar basis, I would like my First Age. So when and how do you propose a change?

As for there being no discussion on this? OMG we discussed this extensively. A vote was taken and ladder system was preferred by the majority. I was one who voted for it.

And as for the ladder being 3 times the size of the raid, why is that a problem? I can pick out a dozen or more on the list who havent been raiding in a long time or raid infrequently or even raided once. These people get jumped over by people who attend the raid. This effectively reduces the number of people actually on the list. So being low on the list doesnt mean 6 months, after each successful raid only 12 people advance. I went up 18 spots in 6 weeks, while only going on about half the raids.

Whether its DKP or Ladder, we are all vying for the same 1 item. If we only get 1 FA token per week (or 2 or 3 hopefully), how can changing the current system improve anything? This may be something we can keep in mind this Fall when we need another ladder for the new raids that come with the expansion, but not now. Keep in mind, in a few months when the level cap is 75, will we really be running OD on a regualar basis?
Drizzle
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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You do bring up some real issues Iso and i can see how nobody would want to change the system when half way thru the list but with 36 ppl on the list someone new to the system will never have a chance to get anything EVER we will not be running this raid for 36 more weeks assumeing new stuff comes out and so why would anyone want to start raiding with us knowing that they will likely never see anything. I dont know how you could change ladder/mess into a real system fairly but i didnt see how the ladder got hodgepodged together anyway when many real contributers werent included but /shrug.

And with a real system the ladder might move more then one spot, under the current system a first age symbol is the only thing moveing the ladder, except for a few at the near bottem loading up and staying at the bottem.


But tell me how can we invite anyone to a raid and say to them ok come raid with us you wont get a pick prolly ever but come on along anyway.

Pretty soon a new raid will come out and we as a kin will move on to it and a few of our officers and cool kids will have the gear and the rest of us will be SOL like so many raids before.

So if you didnt start raiding early or got stuck towards the bottem of the list or dont get to raid as often
the ladder just gives you the finger and makes you say hmm dont think there is really any point in me raiding.

And maybe your right Iso maybe you\ll never fix this jackked up ladder into a proper system but we COULD learn our lesson for next time, we could not alienate a huge chunk of raiders who think that the current system will never produce any results for them ever given the current cycle of the lotro devs.

And maybe its wrong of me who raids so sporadically to ever expect to get anything, but i couldnt get excited about starting in spot 26 on a list that moves one spot a week hard to get pumped up and go when you feel like you are likely to never see any rewards and that. Was the same with DN with the lists changing ang merging and reforming think i went to DN 30 times and got 1 armour piece and none of the other neat stuff.

At some point ppl say well i forsee nothing in my future why bother? Which is the way some of the ppl feel about our current raiding. We put DN and BG on the schedule but cant get enough people to fill em WHY? Because many people feel alienated by ladders that are five miles long or have everthing they could want because the previous loot system was stagnant.

With DKP it doesnt have to be all or nothing with only the first age provideing movement in the system and bottem feeders soaking everything else.

And as for discussion maybe that happened behind the scenes i remember a batch of forum posts about a few loot systems but as far as discussion at the member level i sure didnt see it, maybe i was gone that day. I felt like the all mighty TG came done against DKP and then we voted and that was that.



thanks Drizz
Isofir
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Driz, I just dont understand where 36 weeks comes from. If you are sucessful in a raid, all 12 move up. If the person ahead of you was not in the raid, they dont go down, but you jump over them. I started at 26, 6 weeks later i am at 8. Thats 18 spots in 6 weeks = 3 spots per week. And I dont make it to all the raids. If we get to the point where we get 2 first age per week, that rate will double. However, you cant go to 1 raid and expect to get something. And you dont move up if you dont complete the raid.

As for DN, I thought the ladder worked well. I ran it regularly as well (maybe not 30 times) and I got a full DN set on my RK.

Quote:
And as for discussion maybe that happened behind the scenes i remember a batch of forum posts about a few loot systems but as far as discussion at the member level i sure didnt see it, maybe i was gone that day. I felt like the all mighty TG came done against DKP and then we voted and that was that.


This was discussed here, 10 pages of discussion that lasted a month and a half:

http://southerncrossvilya.guildlaunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5882470&highlight=ladder&gid=172824&gid=172824

It wasnt glossed over, it wasnt behind the scenes, it wasnt even discussed in the officer forum. It was a very detailed, very open, and at times very heated debate. TG had her opinion in favor of ladder (as did I), but the decision was up to a kin vote.

I'm all in favor of a new discussion on a new system for the new raiding instances, and then we will vote on it. And then once again whatever system wins the vote will prevail....just like last time
Malandan
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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With DN, a number of bosses were downed each run, like 5/6? We rocked through it and the ladder moved fast.
With OD, we're downing one, maybe two bosses a week, yeah the ladder moves slow. But the one thing you have to remember about the ladder is that only 12 positions are active on any given boss kill. It doesnt matter if 100 people are on the ladder, only 12 positions count on that boss kill.

Why don't you discuss this option...
Make a seperate ladder for the first age drop. It needs to copy the ladder as it stands now, but after its creation it will move on its own. Then people will not be so scared to take the gear drops and that ladder can move as those are distributed.

1 ladder for first age
1 ladder for the gear
This will be easier than any DKP system.
Brumnly
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Actually i think that was the original plan when Mag and i started running the first OD's, but somewhere along the way it got changed, i can't remember why or by who, but i think we should go back to that. Keep current ladder for 1st ages, start new 1 for armour and jewelry.

But also like someone mentioned above ( and i didn't think about it till i read it ) how much longer will we be running OD ? New raids will be out soon, so maybe we should discuss options for ladder/dkp now for then ?



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Drizzle
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When i started this post several people i had talked to recently in this kin had some issues with the ladder system and we discussed what might be done about it. One of the ideas was to start this discussion again, which i have done. I wouldnt say it was well recieved but i do think it was all we could really do about the saddness that is our ladder system besides leaving/raiding with someone else.

Please do not take this as a personal attack or a defenative sign that I or anyone else that is disatisfied with the ladder is going to leave over this issue although i think this has happened in the past, for most of us its not everthing. ( I just raid somewhere else now )

I really do hope that future raids loot will be handled in a different way and that some of the people currently standing by in the sidelines will feel like raiding with SC.

Please guys can we get discard the ladder system and go with one more appropriate for the size of kin we are and for the amount of raiders we should have.

Drizzle
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Honestly, all I forsee down the road is another set of forum posts about how messed up our zero sum dkp system is now or how upside down our dkp system has become. Then comes the, "why dont we change to suicide kings", or "let's go back to this or that other system". There is currently no system that is completely worry free nor that will make everyone happy in any game for all situations.

When we all voted and discussed the system we were going to use, one of the main considerations was how much time would need to be spent keeping up with the system that we chose. In the days of the rift when Anda and I were in RoE (Rangers of Evendim) the decision was made to go with a simple dkp system. There was nothing simple about it guys. There were (and probably still aren't) any web based apps that were designed to track the boss kills and loot distribution in LoTRO. Yeah there are a ton of them for WoW and EQ, but we don't care about those games. LoTRO doesn't support (at least not yet that I'm aware) third party software to allow access the software needs to track it. Therefore we have to do it manually.

I personally spent 2 hours per night after a raid updating the dkp tables, converting them to html, and uploading the resulting files to the kin site for all to see. Sometimes I didnt get to bed until 3 or 4 am that morning. If it was a Friday raid I had to be fresh and ready for the next night (especially if I was leading). It was work. Anda remembers those days, and you can ask her how She and Crop felt after coming into the raids later than many and how long it took them to get a drop. And this was when most people were only sitting on 40-50 points and the only feasible raid for us was the Rift. Months later we still had a long line waiting for Thaurlach drops because it took so much longer to get that fight on farm than the rest of the fights. Most every raid will be that way when it comes to multiple boss fights.

Changing the system brings up things already hashed out before. Who is going to maintain the website (if one truly exists that will work for us), or who is going to maintain the spreadsheets for all these raids? Remember, this isnt just about OD, this is about DN, Rift (we have new f2p members that will want to run that as well as other raids), BG, all of them and any yet to be released. A new set of spreadsheets or another new database on the dkp website for every raid under the new system, we must be a glutton for punishment.

The ladder is the easiest to maintain and update, it is the least confusing, and it IS fair. I've used or studied all the current systems. Ladders are the toughest to abuse. We can argue if we want but it is true (been there done that). It is not the loot systems fault that as a kin we are only getting one first age drop a week, is it? What system would be more fair for a drop that only happens once a week? Why does anyone think so? What could be more fair that earning our first age in the order in which we earned it? What horrible event in our gaming life happened that makes any of us despise a ladder system so much? I am willing to bet that just as many people have had bad experiences with the other loot systems and they may very well hate those systems just as bad as some of us hate ladders.

I don't think a new system is going to solve anything. It is definitely going to create a lot of work for somebody. What happens when the person maintaining the system experiences complete burnout and stops raiding, or worse, they stop playing? How happy are we going to be if something in RL takes us from the game for a few weeks or a few months and then one of us starts to feel we have been left behind again? Change again? Remember, frequent raiding earns us rewards, that is what loot systems are designed to reward...our time spent in the raids/boss kills/learning the runs, etc.

My suggestion, as noted in a previous reply, is to split the OD ladder. Simply split the ladder now as it stands. This will allow those feeling stuck to begin to receive the non first age loot and eliminate the "bottom feeders" I've heard mention of. Incidently folks, this is a very negative term being used to describe our own kin mates. I have seen it in tells, on the forums, ingame and in raids. Frankly this derogative term deserves no place in our kin forums or any kin chat at any time after this thread. I used it here as a quote to demonstrate how offensive this sounds to me and to our friends and how I personaly feel about its use. It should stop now so no hard feelings are created.

Thanks for reading...
Isofir
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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Before we can even think of switching to DKP, a few things would need to happen.

We would need a volunteer to run it. Do we have any volunteers?

A discussion would need to take place, and not in a thread called Ladder=broken. That would be biased towards thinking it is broke, whereas I contend that it is not.

A kin vote
Geldarion
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re: Ladder is 3 times the raid size. this = broken

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I was and am still in favor of the ladder system. The thing I liked about it was that I am able to come in, down a boss, and not raid again for a couple of weeks due to grad school and my wife wanting attention, and still be at the same ladder position I earned. I would not be penalized for not making LOTRO my life.

If I remember correctly, the zero-sum DKP system was similarly fair, but it did have the problems of being complicated. I also recall thinking that the ZSDKP method wasn't as good for infrequent raiders as the ladder system, though I can't remember the details of ZSDKP atm.

I wouldn't be opposed to comparing systems for the new expansion. I think it very well could be possible that I do a lot more raiding than I used to, and I know I will be in the first wave to get a character to 75.

Another thing that might be nice is to have some reward for going on the "we are going to die 15 times but won't be able to down the boss to learn the fight" runs. I've been in OD three times, and I've done Wound, Poison, and Fear. All three times, we've not downed the boss, and I've not been on the ladder (which I understand, as it is part of the system). I was using store items to reduce the repair bill, but I still used my time. I was grateful for the chance to come and see the instances, and enjoying the content is a large part of why I want to go in there, but I would like to see some reward of getting on some kind of loot list. I don't even know if it is possible, just a suggestion.

Again, I am happy to get in the raids and use the current loot system, and it may serve us well in the expansion, with very few 75s.

Just some thoughts from a semi-infrequent raider.


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